chickens … home … roost

today on both sides of the atlantic we’ve had a couple of positively shining examples of why it’s NOT a good idea to have all this mass immigration** to the west — especially from particularly violent places (see: chechnya, africa) — and doubly especially from particularly violent places where large parts of the population view us as the enemy, an assessment which frankly isn’t entirely wrong.

first, we’ve got a beheading and disemboweling of a soldier in london by a couple of black muslims — at least one of whom has a local london accent, btw:

“Terror at Woolwich barracks: Attacker tried to behead and disembowel British soldier”

“Terrorism returned to the streets of Britain today as a soldier was murdered by two suspected Islamists who attempted to behead and disembowel him as he left his barracks, in the first deadly attack since the 2005 London bombings.

“One of the suspected killers, who addressed an onlooker with a camera, said the pair had carried out the attack ‘because David Cameron, (the) British government sent troops in Arabic country’.

“As pedestrians stood close by the armed men, he went on: ‘We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you,’ according to footage obtained by ITV News.

“The soldier was ambushed by the two men as he left the base in Woolwich, south-east London, who attacked him and then dragged his body into the middle of the road to pose for photographs while standing over him waving a machete and a gun, according to witnesses….”

you don’t get much more barbaric than hacking someone to death with a machete. and these guys were armed with handguns, so they specifically CHOSE to kill this unarmed soldier in the way that they did. to make a statement, presumably, but this is also often how they deal with their enemies “back in the old country” (or sweden).

no doubt they viewed a soldier as a legitimate target — a soldier who had actually served in iraq and afghanistan, btw — and it is a slightly less crazy choice than a random civilian — but NOT an unarmed soldier who is just walking down the street. that is just cowardly. and, again, the way they killed him was barbaric — and they had a cleaner option (i.e. they had guns). they preferred barbarism.

in the u.s., the plot thickens (as if it wasn’t already thick enough!) in the boston marathon bombings case:

Friend of Tamerlan Tsarnaev shot dead by FBI after ‘pulling a knife as he prepared to sign a confession to 2011 triple homicide’

– Ibragim Todashev, 27, reportedly turned violent during an interview with an FBI agent
– He was being interviewed over his ties to Boston bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev
– Todashev, from Chechnya, was shot dead by the agent just after midnight Wednesday
– He had reportedly confessed to the FBI that he played a role in a brutal triple slaying in the Boston area in 2011
– Todashev had met Tsarnaev while he was living in Boston and last spoke him about a week before the bombing
– He was arrested on May 4 in an unrelated incident after he knocked a man unconscious in a fight over a parking space

involvement in a triple homicide AND you beat a guy senseless in a fight over a parking space?! AND you pull a knife on some fbi agents?? wtf is wrong with you?

i’ll tell you what’s wrong with these people: human biodiversity. they all come from populations which are, on average, more violent than western populations. some of these people probably like the violence — they relish it. note that the elder tsarnaev brother as well as this ibragim todashev were both boxers. these people are quick to anger — and quick to act violently when they are angry.

we know that europeans have, for whatever reasons, become less violent on average since the medieval period. why that is remains open for debate, but it is a fact that cannot be denied. this pacification seems to have happened in other populations as well — japan, china, india. but, comparatively speaking, it has NOT really happened in places like sub-saharan africa, the arab world/middle east/north africa/pakistan/afghanistan, amongst certain tribal peoples of south america, etc.

westerners better wake the f*ck up soon to hbd and that different peoples are different and quit importing people from violent societies, otherwise these events are going to become much more common right here on our doorsteps.

this is not to say that some of these peoples don’t have legitimate grievances with us. sam francis was right about Why They Attack Us many years ago (he was right about a lot of things):

“[T]he blunt truth is that the United States has been at war for years — at least a decade, since we launched a war against Iraq in 1991, even though Iraq had done absolutely nothing to harm the United States or any American. Our bombing attacks on Iraq certainly caused civilian casualties, and if they were not deliberate, nobody beating the war drums at the time felt much regret for them. For ten years, we have maintained economic sanctions on Iraq that have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, and we have repeatedly bombed it whenever it failed to abide by standards we imposed on it.

“Under Bill Clinton, we again launched bombing raids against civilians — once against so-called ‘terrorist training camps’ supposedly under bin Laden’s control in Afghanistan and at the same time against a purported ‘chemical weapons factory’ in Sudan that almost certainly was no such thing….

“In all the buckets of media gabble about the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, not once have I heard any journalist ask any expert the simple question, ‘Why did the terrorists attack us?’

“There is, of course, an implicit answer to the unasked question: It’s because the terrorists are ‘evil’; they ‘hate democracy’; they are ‘fanatics,’ ‘barbarians’ and ‘cowards.’ Those, of course, are answers that can satisfy only children. Some day it might actually dawn on someone in this country that the grown-up but unwelcome answer is that the terrorists attacked us because they were paying us back for what we started.

“Let us hear no more about how the ‘terrorists’ have ‘declared war on America….’

“The blunt and quite ugly truth is that the United States has been at war for years — that it started the war in the name of ‘spreading democracy,’ ‘building nations,’ ‘waging peace,’ ‘stopping aggression,’ ‘enforcing human rights,’ and all the other pious lies that warmongers always invoke to mask the truth, and that it continued the war simply to save a crook from political ruin. What is new is merely that this week, for the first time, the war we started came home — and all of a sudden, Americans don’t seem to care for it so much.”
_____

**although as steve sailer keeps pointing out, there are only one or two hundred chechens totally in the u.s., so apparently ANY amount of immigration from chechnya is a bad idea.

(note: comments do not require an email.)

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79 Comments

  1. this is not to say that some of these peoples don’t have legitimate grievances with us.

    Who are “these peoples”? None of the murders in question are Iraqis or even Arabs. Does the West need to cower in the face of pan-Islamism?

    Reply

  2. @ihtg – “Who are ‘these peoples’? None of the murders in question are Iraqis or even Arabs. Does the West need to cower in the face of pan-Islamism?”

    look. i’m not english, but i get all riled up when i see english people attacked because they are, culturally speaking and genetically speaking, my “cousins.” i’m more closely related genetically to other europeans than i am to someone in papua new guinea. so i can understand why muslims identify with other muslims — they feel a connection. if you don’t get that, you’d better try, ’cause you’re missing a BIG point of homo sapien-ness.

    should we cower in the face of pan-islamism? no. but at the same time, wtf are we doing in afghanistan? or iraq? did it EVER make any sense. no. bringing democracy to a bunch of tribal peoples? — gimme a break! let them carry on living without democracy — it suits them fine. they don’t need it, they don’t want it, and they’re not capable of it anyway (liberal democracy, that is).

    edit: and, more importantly, why are we inviting these violent peoples into our once (fairly) peaceful countries?

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  3. so i can understand why muslims identify with other muslims — they feel a connection.

    They do feel a connection, but is it born of true affinity, or is it just a product of shared anti-Western resentment?

    You said it yourself – and have been saying it throughout your blogging career – these people are tribal. They care about their families and tribes, not about other Muslims halfway across the world. They don’t get nationalism.

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  4. “you don’t get much more barbaric than hacking someone to death with a machete.”

    i stand corrected:

    Video: Syrian rebel cuts out soldier’s heart, eats it

    The ghastly video shows how barbaric the Syrian civil war can be.

    A man, said to be a well-known rebel fighter, carves into the body of a government soldier and cuts out his heart and liver.

    “I swear to God we will eat your hearts out, you soldiers of Bashar. You dogs. God is greater!” the man says. “Heroes of Baba Amr … we will take out their hearts to eat them.”

    He then puts the heart in his mouth and takes a bite…..

    Reply

  5. @ihtg – “They do feel a connection, but is it born of true affinity, or is it just a product of shared anti-Western resentment?”

    the latter.

    @ihtg – “You said it yourself – and have been saying it throughout your blogging career – these people are tribal. They care about their families and tribes, not about other Muslims halfway across the world. They don’t get nationalism.”

    you’re forgetting the tribal maxim: “I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers.”

    this can be extended out to “all of us muslims against the infidel,” but once the infidel is taken care of — if they ever manage — then they’d all revert to “i against my brother” again.

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  6. i said: “i get all riled up when i see english people attacked because they are, culturally speaking and genetically speaking, my ‘cousins.'”

    i also said: “you’re forgetting the tribal maxim: ‘I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers.'”

    keep in mind that i am a little clannish creature. (~_^) (i should keep it in mind, too.) less clannish/tribal than an afghani or chechen, but more so than your average anglo-saxon (i think). for instance, my people do NOT fall into pinker’s range of very low homicide rates in the 19th century.

    i “get” clannishness. trust me. (^_^)

    Reply

  7. @andrew – “I don’t get tribalism or feeling empathy for members of the same race more so than members of another.”

    i do. but i “get” feeling empathy more for members of western european populations than all of the white race. there’s something cultural here, as well (and by culture i mean an expression of underlying genes for different behaviors).

    Reply

  8. this can be extended out to “all of us muslims against the infidel,”

    Can it? If you look purely at genetics, some of these Muslim ethnies are actually more closely related to nearby Christians.

    I just don’t know if that’s ever really been a real phenomenon except among a relatively small number of extremists and culturally dislocated immigrants.

    In other words, while the idea of pan-Islamic solidarity and “all of us muslims against the infidel” might provide a reason for a tribalistic young idiot to let out his aggressions, I have my doubts whether it’s actually an important factor in the larger scale of things.

    What I’m trying to say is, saying “we deserve the hatred of Chechens, Pakistanis and Somalis because IRAQ” isn’t a strong argument. To a large degree these people are looking for reasons and ways to be offended.

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  9. “i do. but i “get” feeling empathy more for members of western european populations than all of the white race. there’s something cultural here, as well (and by culture i mean an expression of underlying genes for different behaviors).”

    Maybe I’m more outbred than you, so this may be why I don’t feel tribalism? I think applies to Jayman, too?

    Reply

  10. @ihtg – “If you look purely at genetics, some of these Muslim ethnies are actually more closely related to nearby Christians.”

    that doesn’t matter. not one little bit (i don’t think). the point is that they are tribal in nature. and then they happen to be muslims. so then they identify more with other muslims than with some peoples who they might in actuality be more genetically related to.

    @ihtg – “What I’m trying to say is, saying ‘we deserve the hatred of Chechens, Pakistanis and Somalis because IRAQ’ isn’t a strong argument.”

    well, it is a strong argument if you keep in mind that most humans are stupid and irrational. most people just run on instinct and their emotions.

    @ihtg – “To a large degree these people are looking for reasons and ways to be offended.”

    no, not just looking for reasons to be offended. chechens probably have some legitimate reasons to be annoyed at the u.s. — i mean, it’s not like the c.i.a. hasn’t been involved ever in that region of the world. and, like we did with the kurds, we probably left them hanging at some point.

    but, yeah — chechens are just angry at the world (and at each other whenever they get the chance) because historically they really got the short end of the stick — AND they’re tribal AND not the brightest bulbs in the package — put all that together and what do you get? jihad! or some other such silly notion.

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  11. @andrew – “I wonder, does being a vegan animal rights hippie correlate with being outbred? Most of my fellow vegan friends are white people.”

    i was a vegetarian for a while for animal rights reasons (until i remembered how much i like meat (~_^) ). this has been brought up on the blog before by big nose kate and melykin — that maybe very outbred populations go for animal rights as sort-of the next logical step in universalistic altruism. makes sense to me. i think there could be something in that. (^_^)

    (love the animals! while i do eat animal products again, i try to make sure to buy only free range and other animals who had a happy life — eat a lot of game, actually, for that reason.)

    Reply

  12. the point is that they are tribal in nature. and then they happen to be muslims. so then they identify more with other muslims than with some peoples who they might in actuality be more genetically related to.

    I guess you must have a multifaceted definition of “tribal” here, then.

    On one hand, you seem to have defined it as “a tendency to be extremely loyal towards those one is genetically related to”.

    On the other hand, you also seem to be saying that it’s…a general tendency to look for ways to band together with other people to fight against those you see as oppressors?

    Reply

  13. Thanks for replying!

    I wish we could apply kindness and non-violence to all sentient life. Just like how it’s illogical to interfere with other countries (it makes things worse on both ends), it’s illogical for us as an intelligent species to continue violence upon other sentient life.

    Slavery was outlawed around the world by the 1980s (I think?), and I harming and killing animals will be one day, too. I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime (I turn 27 in August), but I think it will happen eventually.

    It’s silly, but I think Vulcan culture is the eventual human culture. We can certainly see proof for that in Steven Pinker’s newest book. What a shame that we’re still in the muck in 2013. But I think we are seeing rapid changes (compared to the past) in human thought.

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  14. “so it could just be that you’re a nice guy. (^_^) (i don’t know what your background is.)”

    Thanks! My dad is Sri Lankan (Tamil, Christian), and my mom is Guyanese (Indo, atheist, ex-Christian, ex-Hindu). Immigrants to Canada, where they met, where I was born, and still live.

    You don’t reveal much about yourself here, as your research is controversial and you are probably afraid of negative attention in real life, which is understandable. All we know is that you’re white and from outside the Hajnal line. But we appreciate you being truthful by taking into account your true feelings, but being logical by not letting it effect your findings.

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  15. @ihtg – “I guess you must have a multifaceted definition of ‘tribal’ here, then.”

    no. you have some populations that have, for whatever reasons, “genes for behaving tribally.”

    leave them at home — in syria or in chechnya or afghanistan or wherever — and they will be extremely loyal towards family, etc., and the “nation” will be dysfunctional because they won’t be civic, etc., etc.

    take them OUT of that context — like the ottomans did with the janissaries — and you can create a very loyal, crazy bunch of soldiers who will fight for youbecause you’ve co-opted their “genes for behaving tribally.” (this is a post i’ve been meaning to write, btw.)

    altruism behaviors get misapplied all the time: just take a look at the western world and how we feel towards everyone on the planet. that universal altruism worked great when there were only westerners in the western world (or english in england, germans in germany, etc.), but it’s a big FAIL now in the face of peoples who won’t reciprocate.

    the tribal thing is really very, very clear in that bedouin saying: “I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers.” the chechens first ally with their brothers and cousins against the neighboring teip, then all the chechen teips will ally together against the russians, then — when they find themselves in contact with other muslims from elsewhere in the world who they never would’ve know about traditionally — they ally with them, too, against americans (death to america!), because those other muslims seem more like them than some christian armenians or georgians. but they never manage to build a functioning chechen nation — at least not one that looks like a western nation (as if they ought to do that for some reason!) — because they’re tribal.

    that’s all.

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  16. @Andrew Selvarasa:

    “It’s silly, but I think Vulcan culture is the eventual human culture. We can certainly see proof for that in Steven Pinker’s newest book”

    Only if NW Europeans replace the rest of the world’s population… ;)

    Reply

  17. @andrew – “My dad is Sri Lankan (Tamil, Christian), and my mom is Guyanese (Indo, atheist, ex-Christian, ex-Hindu).”

    sorry to say, but these are some populations that i haven’t read or thought much about (wrt my little working theory, that is). i really ought to think about south asians (the south asians south of pakistan, that is!) because, obviously, compared to many populations, indians are pretty peaceful. and there have certainly been universalistic ideas coming out of the indian sub-continent — buddhism, jainism.

    time to hit the books! (^_^)

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  18. @andrew – “…but being logical by not letting it effect your findings.”

    TRYING not to, anyway. it’s not always easy — and probably not completely possible.

    darwin used to keep a little notebook that he carried around with him all the time in which he jotted down any and all arguments he could think of that would contradict his Theory. he didn’t ever want to forget any of them — in other words, he was trying to deal with some of his cognitive biases (that we all suffer from). i try to do the same, but like i say, i’m not alway sure how successful i am at it. =/

    (^_^)

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  19. Haha, you’d think so, but I live in a city called Brampton in the province of Ontario. It’s filled with brown people (primarily Sikhs from Punjab in India). I remember in high school, there was a whole “brown VS black” gang battle for a while.

    I hate tribalism. :/

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  20. Let me say that it’s too bad that these guys are Black. The bulk of the Black population in Britain is Jamaican…

    Now that was just an example of group affinity for those here that don’t get it…

    I actually just had an interesting discussion about this. One might imagine that Europeans and Americans might realize the danger of immigration, especially from unstable parts of the world after events like these. But they, by in large, won’t. Certain forces will see to that. Why? Here’s something to consider: what would having a conversation about this topic entail? Even to make a justified argument against immigration from certain violent corners of the world mean acknowledging group differences. And if some groups can be more violent, less intelligent, less altruistic than others on average, etc, etc… The whole topic will come out. We’d like to think that this would happen in an organized manner, spearheaded by more cool-headed rational folks, but look at the record of how public commenters handle easily bungled truths.

    Back when groups differences weren’t so taboo in Western society, and one could talk about them openly, society was also more racist (this was pre-Civil Rights here in America). It is possible that in order for society to be aware of the reality of HBD, it must be actually be racist.

    Think of all the simmering resentment in Whites that are the victims of these crimes (as a Black man, I wouldn’t talk to this soldier’s family about now). And on top of that, imagine all the Whites that are not necessarily so politically correct about race. How would they react? (Here’s an example: Far-right extremists in eastern Germany quietly building a town for neo-Nazis.) And to be sure, folks like those here who simply view HBD as just another set of facts of nature don’t seem to be the majority of the people who do believe this stuff (judging from posters and commenters on the matter in the blogosphere). Sane, moderate thinkers seem to avoid this stuff like the plague. (Of course, this could just be the disaffected voices speaking loudest, but that is the appearance anyway.)

    It could be that open knowledge of HBD will lead to racial violence – two-sided racial violence. (Indeed, oddly that might be predicted by Peter Turchin’s cliodynamics). It was remarked to me that certain elites might be well aware (or aware enough) of group biological differences but keep a lid on it because they fear what the result of open knowledge would be.

    Whether or not that’s a wise strategy, or whether or not you feel the truth being out there is more important – as I do – that is the probable mentality behind such things. I suspect that that is why the elite voices are quick to put the kibosh on any discussion of group realities when events like these occur, as they are sure to do. And perhaps it is with “justification”.

    Tribalism – even for Westerners – is big. Can you have a multiracial society in one that is honest about group differences? Europe kinda has a choice on that, but we here in America don’t. Will people really run with the understanding that differences on average don’t apply to every last individual, or will group solidarity rule the day? How will intelligent and completely inoffensive Blacks, for example, be treated by Whites then? The example of Chechens challenges the notion of treating people as individuals, because arguably they are so tribal and violent on average that even a modest number of them can cause problems (there are only 200 in America). But if they pose a problem in that way, what about other groups?

    In the end, it might not matter because the pressure of immigration and problems like these might bring the issue to forefront anyway. But what if there is no way of avoiding that? What if releasing knowledge of HBD will just hasten this reckoning?

    These are important questions to consider. I can’t say I have answers for them.

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  21. @jayman – thanks for the thoughtful — and literally thought FULL! — comment, jay. i’m going to hold off on responding to it until tomorrow, when i’m (hopefully) not so brain-dead! (^_^)

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  22. I think many people in the HDBsphere are imagining a day when the general population will accept HBD. I don’t think this will ever be the case. Rather, I think society will continue to believe in the blank slate, to a large extent. We will believe that most people are blank slates, “except that Timmy has ADHD, but other than that, he’s a normal kid”.

    That is to say, people will always believe we are all the same, but the differences like ADHD and dyslexia are caused by neurological disorders, and even with those disorders, we are still the same. And those disorders could easily be willed away through therapy. Or maybe the cause is gluten?! Flouride?! So no matter what, we are all blank slates, shaped only by culture, lifestyle and upbringing.

    I believe that will continue to be the general consensus, and only a small amount of people will believe in HBD.

    But for some reason, racism towards whites will always be allowed. So I can call hbd*chick a honkey tonk badonkadonk cracker jack because she’s somehow bestowed some kind of mystical aura of privilege from conception, but she’ll have to go through life walking on eggshells and being apologetic around us. :| (I’ve been reading a lot of Thomas Sowell recently.)

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  23. JayMan, you’ve managed to capture (for the most part) my sentiments vis a vis HBD and its implications – namely, the sorry state of public discourse that tries its best to “censor” it, the fact that HBD’ers like you, hbd* chick, and I appear to be the minority (i.e. those who acknowledge HBD as natural fact and study it either out of curiosity or a desire to help others and make ’em aware v. those who use it to reinforce racist stereotypes and look down on cats from other races), and what it would mean for public and race relations if it were openly discussed. In my view, it doesn’t look good.

    I’ll be honest – while preparing for my transitions in my personal space and my blog, I contemplated quitting HBD blogging/tweeting. Seeing what the powers that be would do to someone who talked about HBD-related items at any point in their lives (e.g. Jason Richwine), the liberal use of ad-hominem and other pejoratives against those who dare discuss HBD or hint at a hereditary angle to real-world problems like education, immigration, etc. – plus the fact that I’m not financially stable as yet due to underemployment and other factors – made me wonder if HBD blogging was worth it.

    (Mind you, I haven’t faced “Watsoning” or its equivalent – and I hope not to!)

    …Then I took time to re-read the few HBD posts I have written (along with the comments) and decided that it’d be worth it to continue – if only to shed light on other factors that’d allow disadvantaged groups to receive real help (i.e. in education) and to satisfy my own curiosity re: Hispanics. I admit it’s tough at times to write the posts since they often involve balancing subjects I love (mathematics/statistics) with subjects I never really liked studying (biology/history). Still won’t blog anything new until I handle my priorities, so I do warn those who read my blog for its HBD content that you’ll be waiting a while…

    Now…concerning immigration, am I the only one who’s wondering why (at least in the U.S.) it’s being debated more as a racial/ethnic issue than an ECONOMIC issue?

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  24. @Nelson:

    Glad to hear you’ve decided to continue HBD blogging, because I look forward to more of your posts.

    While a great many of the HBD bloggers are important and the work they do is invaluable, I think you and I are particularly significant because we are people of color who talk about the topic. We challenge the charge that HBD is the stuff of White guys who want to promote “scientific racism” and other ridiculous nonsense claims like it.

    (Of course, HBD Chick and the other girls in the field counter the charge that it’s a bunch of White guys as well ;) ).

    “Now…concerning immigration, am I the only one who’s wondering why (at least in the U.S.) it’s being debated more as a racial/ethnic issue than an ECONOMIC issue?”

    Because the racial element is involved. As we saw with the reaction to Richwine’s work, the race part trumps everything else in the mind of detractors…

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  25. HBD* Chick:

    “and now this. =/”

    That is probably the worst part of the diversity/multicultural invasion.

    If things don’t get turned around and fast, it’s not going to be some moderate solution like deport them peacefully. It’s going to be more like rioting, killing and burning down immigrant neighborhoods and mosques.

    I really don’t like Golden Dawn, but when your country has high unemployment and you are getting swamping with Africans and Muslims, people are going to turn to an extremest group to save them.

    I really do love the west. Sometimes I fantasize about how great America would have been without the immigration act of 1964. Without the government giving in to bribes to allow companies to offshore their labor and importing millions to drive down wages, the rest of America might look more like North Dakota. Where you can get a job starting at McDonald’s with a 300 dollar bonus and 16 dollars an hour.

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  26. @JayMan:
    Glad to hear you’ve decided to continue HBD blogging, because I look forward to more of your posts.

    Good to know. Though the wait may be long, I assure you (and my other readers) that you won’t be disappointed.

    While a great many of the HBD bloggers are important and the work they do is invaluable, I think you and I are particularly significant because we are people of color who talk about the topic. We challenge the charge that HBD is the stuff of White guys who want to promote “scientific racism” and other ridiculous nonsense claims like it.

    I agree. I just wish the discourse (esp. comments) were a bit more civil. Speaking of the “scientific racism” claim, have you seen this post? It’s from 2011 but the comment thread is somewhat alive, with the most recent comment from a few days back and many others made this year…

    Because the racial element is involved. As we saw with the reaction to Richwine’s work, the race part trumps everything else in the mind of detractors…

    So I’ve noticed. Though there are kinks in their armor; after all, some have left Zuckerberg’s fwd.us advocacy group, and IEEE-USA continues to oppose proposed H1-B expansions in the Go8 bill due to adverse effects on American engineers…

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  27. “You people will never be safe. Remove your Government, they don’t care about you.”

    Good advice, even if it came from a “diverse” killer.

    If our governments cared about us, he and all his kind would not be in our countries. We are ruled by traitors, and if we ever get the chance we should remove them.

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  28. take them OUT of that context — like the ottomans did with the janissaries — and you can create a very loyal, crazy bunch of soldiers who will fight for you — because you’ve co-opted their “genes for behaving tribally.” (this is a post i’ve been meaning to write, btw.)

    Ah, I see. That is a profound statement.

    What you’re saying here is that, in a way, Muslims are actually suffering from their own type of “pathological altruism”, just as Westerners are. They’re driven to behave altruistically towards Muslim groups that are less genetically related to them than nearby infidel groups are.

    Does the presence of far away foreigners drive us all mad?

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  29. Off topic: HBDChick, I just learned about something that’s been a bit off the radar. Google for information about Burma’s 969 movement.

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  30. @Chrisdavies,

    That’s a popular theory here in Sweden too – the rioteers are disturbed and need some kind of treatment. Ten suburbs on fire and it’s all just mental patients on the loose.

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  31. Wow, just wow. Somehow, I feel very sad today. Either lack of sun exposure, of sudden attack of the Slavic melancholy.

    Jayman, you are completely right. I have already written about one example – my own daughter. She’s very young and I still want to reeducate it, but somehow, if I spent literally hours trying to explain the difference between average, means, and the individual – and she’s very , very intelligent little girl! – then what will happen when HBD will arrive to the masses which WON’T have personal lecturers trying their best to explain statistics to them?

    Starting with addressing a person group average on some quality in which said person is clear outlier may have been good attempt at the education, what do you think?

    In addition, it is interesting that in Poland I found information about those pesky British racist preparing to burn mosques in Great Britain as revenge for actions of two nuts completely unrelated to the peaceful muslim population of GB, while there is no inforrmation on the net (I don’t watch TV, so I don’t know about that) about the 4-nights rioting in Stockholm.

    Finally, in Poland we had muslim population which lived side-by-side to Poles and was extremely loyal to Poland – Polish Tatars (Lipkas etc). This is enough a proof that muslim minority CAN coexist with host nation.

    Reply

  32. @Chrisdavies,

    There may be something to that. I sorted you in the wrong category.

    As for the concerns about how and if HBD can reach out to the general public, I think that is already happening. The Norwegian documentary Hjernevask was aired on public TV and it didn’t cause and allergic reactions, in fact it appears to have had a dramatic influence on the gender politics in that country. Writer and TED talker Susan Cain discusses how Kenyans with certain genes are better suited for a pastoralist lifestyle and how a balance between Introversion and Extraversion may be found in Indo-European cultures ruled traditionally by warrior kings and priestly advisers. Maybe she gets away with it because she is Jewish, but the mere fact that anyone can get away with saying things like that seems like a shift to me.

    Reply

  33. There’s a third concurrent event going on, in Sweden. Young Muslims are rampaging through Stockholm, burning cars and rioting. It’s been going on for several nights. I have some contacts in Sweden who have linked to articles (in Swedish) and there’s also some coverage in English on the web site The Local.

    The Anglo media are avoiding the story like the plague. I saw a two paragraph item in NYT, not mentioning that the “youths” were Muslim immigrants (or children of immigrants).

    Reply

  34. The largest paper here in Sweden has a big headline on how the police are to blame. I’m just glad the police pamper the East Asians here so they don’t start rioting too : )

    Reply

  35. Jayman,

    “It was remarked to me that certain elites might be well aware (or aware enough) of group biological differences but keep a lid on it because they fear what the result of open knowledge would be.”

    I do not believe in such a benevolent elite. Should it be true, they should have opposed immigration to the US and Europe. In Europe it would have been easy to maintain the notion of literal equality, and in the US one could have blamed slavery and white privilege as long as necessary lacking any instantly obvious counterexamples (e.g. East Asians, Mexicans etc.). It is idiotic to provide ample evidence for differences by forcibly integrating people.

    As for the general notion that the knowledge of HBD will lead to racial violence, I am not sure. Before the second half of 20th century racial differences were generally assumed, nevertheless that did not lead automatically to violence. Though i agree that the average level of racism would probably be somewhat higher.

    Reply

    1. @Nador:

      “As for the general notion that the knowledge of HBD will lead to racial violence, I am not sure. Before the second half of 20th century racial differences were generally assumed, nevertheless that did not lead automatically to violence. Though i agree that the average level of racism would probably be somewhat higher.”

      It was certainly more out in the open…

      Reply

  36. @Nelson:

    “Speaking of the “scientific racism” claim, have you seen this post? It’s from 2011 but the comment thread is somewhat alive, with the most recent comment from a few days back and many others made this year…”

    I did. That was the piece I referenced.

    Reply

  37. I think that some of you are missing a key fact: non-elite people who live in multicultural societies already fully accept HBD. Only the elite believe in the blank slate.

    If we are going to predict what will happen in the US if suddenly HBD was openly acknowledged by society we only need to look at the elite. We already know what the non-elite want: segregation. Not just separate water fountains, but separate towns. The process of segregation is generally violent, but once people are segregated they are generally peaceful.

    The real question is what the elite would do. Would they try to create racial equality through eugenics? Would there be an Atlanta Compromise with an exception for the Talented Tenth?

    Reply

  38. In a way it’s really quite depressing.

    Many of the positions held in “our” corner of the Internet/political spectrum amount to (1) stopping the imperialist wars and (2) stopping mass immigration – a substantial (if not majority) part of which comes from that very imperialism and despoliation practiced by the West against the Third World. In a word, it is a position that can be best be summed up as “isolationism.”

    And yet for that we are portrayed as the wild-eyed, bloodthirsty, “beyond the pale” racists.

    Reply

  39. “I think that some of you are missing a key fact: non-elite people who live in multicultural societies already fully accept HBD. Only the elite believe in the blank slate.”

    Sorry, no.

    I think it would be extremely egotistical to think that we are privileged into information that people with millions of dollars and decades of success do not know.

    Middle and upper class people who live away from diversity, alright I can accept that. But not anyone who would be considered part of the “elite”.

    HBD is obvious to anyone who actually pays attention in life and the specifics of it could be taught in high school. Means, IQs and correlations are all very simple concepts. There are some deeper concepts in HBD that might be considered “college level” but the basics are easy enough.

    Just like how the government is 16 trillion in debt + liabilities with the Federal Reserve printing money like it’s going out of style. People call them idiots for this policy but they aren’t. They know that the dollar will last at least a decade or two longer since other first world nations are buying it because their currencies are so horrible. But they are so rich and powerful that a monetary collapse would benefit them.

    Which leads to a very depressing point of view. The people in charge know exactly what they are doing. Which makes them very evil people to say the least. Not exactly something that warms the heart.

    Reply

  40. “But not anyone who would be considered part of the “elite”. ”

    I use the actual definition of the word, not the incorrect narrow definition. Pretty much anyone with a degree and a job in government, media, or education is part of the elite. Money has nothing to do with it.

    “Means, IQs and correlations are all very simple concepts.” You are really overestimating people.

    “The people in charge” No one is in charge. In Moldbug’s terminology, the Cathedral is in charge. Leftism (the desire for power) it itself the driving force.

    Reply

  41. “Pretty much anyone with a degree and a job in government, media, or education is part of the elite.”

    So like everyone? Is your definition of the “elite” the middle class and above?

    Reply

  42. No. First of all it is not my definition, it is the definition. Grab yourself a dictionary and realize that elite status is about power, not money.

    Engineers are almost never elite. Most scientists (those working in industry) are not elite. Basically the real middle class is not elite. The priesthood (education) and the courtiers (journalism) are elite.

    Reply

  43. Machetes featured in Stockholm as well.
    http://news.yahoo.com/stockholm-riots-challenge-image-happy-generous-state-234811107.html
    “The riots appear to have been sparked by the police killing of a 69-year-old man wielding a machete in the suburb of Husby this month, which prompted accusations of police brutality. The riots then spread from Husby to other poor Stockholm suburbs.”

    The usual excuses though.
    ‘”It’s difficult to say why they’re doing this,” he said. “Maybe it’s anger at the law and order forces, maybe it’s anger at their own personal situation, such as unemployment or having nowhere to live.”

    “We see a society that is becoming increasingly divided and where the gaps, both socially and economically, are becoming larger,” said Rami Al-khamisi, co-founder of Megafonen, a group that works for social change in the suburbs.

    “And the people out here are being hit the hardest … We have institutional racism.”

    Reply

  44. “so they specifically CHOSE to kill this unarmed soldier in the way that they did. to make a statement, presumably, but this is also often how they deal with their enemies”

    Part of Islam is that Mohamed is seen as the perfect man and therefore his acts should be emulated. One of those acts was beheading a bunch of people (Jews i think?) after a battle. IIRC that’s the reason behind the preference for beheading as a punishment which in their eyes attacks like this are.

    Reply

  45. @hbd chick

    “i try to make sure to buy only free range and other animals who had a happy life — eat a lot of game, actually, for that reason.)”

    You should eat the hawk and fox and coyote that prey on my poultry and thus give farm animals an even happier life. Let me know if you get a good fisher cat recipe.

    Reply

  46. What happens if you bring floods of ordinary dogs into all dingo habitats, don’t allow the dingoes to separate themselves, and advantage the dogs over the dingoes in every way you can manage? What does that imply about the future dingo population? There won’t be one, of course.

    If you’re capable of understanding that – and everyone but the severely retarded is – it’s easy to see what non-white mass immigration, forced integration and affirmative action means for the future white population.

    The elites who are doing this aren’t stupid, they’re anti-white.

    Reply

  47. Hmm, you clearly haven’t understood why the Americans went into Iraq in 1991, nor why Clinton ordered the missile strike on Sudan, nor why the Americans went into Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003.

    I’ve been through this so many times that I can’t bear to do it again. Suffice it to say that I’m not American, I dislike Clinton and I wasn’t wild about either Bush Senior or Junior. I therefore have no dog in this fight. However, please try to understand that America went into Iraq in 1991 because Saddam invaded Kuwait and was known to have a nuclear program and had used WMD against his own people.

    Sudan was because of an Islamist strike on the USS Cole. Only the night watchman in the factory that was hit was killed. To have done nothing would have only emboldened the Islamists to go further.

    America went into Afghanistan because they were known to harbour and train the terrorists who had just blown up the Twin Towers. They went into Iraq in 2003 because for a decade Saddam had refused to cooperate with the weapons inspectors and serious consequences had been threatened which the UN refused to backup with action.

    There were many other reasons for going into Iraq, among which were a regime change that they should have carried out in 1991 but didn’t because their mission was simply to remove Saddam from Kuwait and nothing else. Human rights abuses, attempts to buy nuclear weapons off the shelf and an American desire to bring an example of democracy to the region. The Americans always knew that this would cost them dearly in terms of money and the wrath of the Left. All it needs now is someone like you from the Right to also start depicting their intervention as a money-spinning escapade.

    Reply

  48. “However, please try to understand that America went into Iraq in 1991 because Saddam invaded Kuwait”
    Yes, the poor Kuwaiti sheiks lost their oil to big bad Saddam, and we had to rescue them. My heart bleeds for these poor victims.

    “and was known to have a nuclear program”
    Ah, the ever-elusive nuclear weapons. Funny how we’re fretting constantly over the possibility that X middle eastern country might get nukes, but never over the one country in that region that actually has nukes (Israel). It’s also funny how our second invasion of Iraq occurred in the absence of any hard evidence of nuclear weapons.

    “and had used WMD against his own people.”
    Chemical weapons are nasty, but are they any worse than conventional weapons, in terms of leaving people horribly maimed (which our invasion has left a lot of)? And given the sharp increase in birth defects in Iraq since the US invasion, it would seem that, intentionally or intentionally, we exposed them to much nastier stuff than Saddam did.

    “America went into Afghanistan because they were known to harbour and train the terrorists who had just blown up the Twin Towers.”
    If the object was to go after the terrorists, why not send in the troops to kill them, and tell the Taliban, “if you interfere, you die, if not, you’ll be okay.” Hell, when we finally killed bin Laden, it was in an operation that cost a tiny fraction of what we’ve spent on Afghanistan. And I doubt the Taliban would have been able to do much either way. Their organized resistance basically crumbled immediately, but we’ve gotten bogged down fighting an ongoing insurgency there because we decided to play the same fruitless game (trying to govern an ungovernable group of people) that the Soviets, British, and various other empires wasted their time with.

    “Human rights abuses, attempts to buy nuclear weapons off the shelf and an American desire to bring an example of democracy to the region.”
    Lots of countries have “attempted” to obtain nukes, and some have succeeded. We haven’t invaded most of them yet. As for human rights abuses: EVERYONE in the Middle East abuses “Human Rights”. And I mean everyone. You think our friends the Saudis respect human rights? Or the sheiks of Kuwait, the poor dears we saved from Saddam? What about the Syrian rebel leader who ate his enemy’s heart? Shall we question whether Israel respects the “human rights” of Palestinians? In this case, I’m not even bashing Israel specifically. The Middle East is a tough neighborhood. If you aren’t at least a little brutal, you won’t survive. But please don’t make noise because the villain of the week ten years ago did the same sorts of things that all the rulers in that region do. And democracy: What exactly has that done for Iraq? All it’s done is give particular sectarian with an axe to grind the ability to do so, while cloaking it in “democratic” legitimacy.

    Reply

  49. “I just got as far as the bit where you said the country we should be worried about is Israel and then I stopped reading.”
    If you’d like to explain why it’s okay A-okay for the Israelis to have nukes, and the end of the world if anyone else in the Middle East does, then please enlighten me. Perhaps there is a good reason for the distinction. That said, even if there is, it doesn’t really invalidate anything else I’ve said, which makes your blanket counterargument flimsy, to say the least.

    Reply

  50. A few comments back, I suggested that the Woolwich attacker may be mentally ill. I wasn’t too surprised therefore when I read reports that he was a heavy cannabis user, since there is a growing body of evidence linking cannabis use with mental illness, controversial as it may be. Conservative commentator Peter Hitchens, writing in the Mail on Sunday, also picked up on this: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2013/05/the-battle-against-conventional-wisdom.html

    Reply

  51. @chris – “…there is a growing body of evidence linking cannabis use with mental illness….”

    i wonder which way the causation flows?: if cannabis use makes you crazy, or if mentally ill people self-medicate with it. maybe some of both.

    Reply

  52. @theunrecordedman – “Hmm, you clearly haven’t understood why the Americans went into Iraq in 1991, nor why Clinton ordered the missile strike on Sudan, nor why the Americans went into Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003.”

    doesn’t really matter why we went into those countries. many of the people there are just going to be p*ssed off at us for bringing (more) war to their lands and their families.

    Reply

  53. @joseph morocco – “You should eat the hawk and fox and coyote that prey on my poultry and thus give farm animals an even happier life.”

    no, thanks. carnivores don’t taste nice. at least not the land-based ones.

    Reply

  54. @anne – “There’s a third concurrent event going on, in Sweden. Young Muslims are rampaging through Stockholm, burning cars and rioting.”

    yeah, i shoulda worked that into the post, too. one great big (muslim) immigrant luuuuuuv fest last week, huh?

    Reply

  55. @szopeno – “Finally, in Poland we had muslim population which lived side-by-side to Poles and was extremely loyal to Poland – Polish Tatars (Lipkas etc). This is enough a proof that muslim minority CAN coexist with host nation.”

    well, this is why i keep saying (although i maybe don’t say it often enough) that religion per se is not the issue. the issue is what population we’re talking about (i.e. human biodiversity). your lipka tatars are/were turkic, of course, not from south asian or african populations.

    wikipedia says that the lipka tatars were all give nobility status, too. that probably helped. (~_^)

    Reply

  56. @ihtg – “The Woolwich murderers were born Christian!”

    yup. religious persuasion doesn’t really matter much (unless your religion happens to affect your mating patterns or imposes some other selection pressure on you). it’s the innate behavioral traits/personalities of people (both individuals and group averages) that matter. religion is just for show — one’s particular sect, i mean.

    Reply

  57. @ihtg – “Off topic: HBDChick, I just learned about something that’s been a bit off the radar. Google for information about Burma’s 969 movement.”

    huh! interesting! thanks. buddhist “neo-nazis.” how curious.

    Reply

  58. @ihtg – “What you’re saying here is that, in a way, Muslims are actually suffering from their own type of ‘pathological altruism’, just as Westerners are. They’re driven to behave altruistically towards Muslim groups that are less genetically related to them than nearby infidel groups are.”

    yes. the modern world, with modern communications and easy travel, has set up some weird selection pressures on populations! or, just, ones that we haven’t experienced before.

    (i’ve been meaning to write a post on this, but just haven’t gotten around to it. it’s just one on my list of … thirty-three(!) backlogged ideas for posts that i’ve got written down here.)

    Reply

  59. @atheist race realist – “If things don’t get turned around and fast, it’s not going to be some moderate solution like deport them peacefully. It’s going to be more like rioting, killing and burning down immigrant neighborhoods and mosques.”

    yes. this is one of the things i fear most, too, and want to prevent if at all possible (probably not, sadly =/ ).

    i’ve said it before — you really don’t need to know or understand anything at all about biology or human biodiversity to know that mixing peoples up like this is a baaaad idea. you just have to have a look at history to know that this never works out well in the end. (except for the 1% at the top using it as a divide and conquer technique … or cheap labor … or whatever the h*ll their plan is … if they’ve even got one.)

    Reply

  60. Woolwich attacker in court:

    “Mr Adebolajo’s legal team did not oppose his remand in prison – but they told the court he had so far not seen medical and psychological reports which may be relevant to whether he is fit to be detained.”

    Looks like I may have been right about the attacker’s mental health.

    Reply

  61. “He also talked digressively about buying margarine in a supermarket before his video feed was temporarily cut off by officials..”

    Reply

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