Archives for posts with tag: italy

northern italian regions or southern italian regions? what do you think?

stolen from zero hedge:

italy - north-south tax divide - zero hedge

italy - north-south tax divide - zero hedge 02

hmmmm. now where have i seen this north-south divide in italy before? oh yeah!:

- Mapping the 2009 Pisa Results for Spain and Italy – @a reluctant apostate
- Chalk and cheese – @those who can see (come back to us m.g.! =( )
- inbreeding in italy
- democracy in italy
- more nepotism in southern than in northern italy…
- news from italy

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who knows?

but italy could be another place to look for a possible rapid inbreeding drop-off/rapid iq increase connection (see yesterday’s post) just ’cause the consang data are available. and they did, indeed, have a pretty rapid decrease in cousin marriage rates — at least in northern italy — not so much in the south. (i can’t think of any other examples where consang data are readily available — i mean without delving into church records or something like that.)

no idea if there are any early iq data available for italy, though. i won’t be looking for them (iq questions? – meh) — just wanted to let anyone who might be interested know that the numbers for the drop in inbreeding do exist for italy. (^_^)

look for the consang data here: Consanguinity, Inbreeding and Genetic Drift in Italy (tables also available here).

i put together a table of the first and last lustra in cavalli-sforza’s data set for a previous post, but there are data for each lustrum in between, too. you can get an idea of the scale of the drop-off (in the regions where there was a drop-off) from my nifty table:

1st cousin marriages - cavalli-sforza

previously: japan – reversal of fortune?

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following up on the “mexican societal values” post — someone suggested via email that the world values scores on the same “justifed” questions for greece and southern italy might likely be lower than the scores for mexico, while the scores from scandinavian countries and maybe germany might likely be higher than for american whites. i agreed that those two scenarios could possibly be the case. i decided to check.

first of all — no greece in the most recent world values survey (dr*t!). i looked at all the major western european nations i could find in the most recent world values survey wave (2005-2008): finland, france, germany, great britain, italy, the netherlands, norway, spain, and sweden. (documentation of the data can be found here.)

i had planned to sort the data by ethnic group so as to just look at whites, but many of these countries didn’t record the ethnicity of the respondents (*facepalm*). on the first question — “Is it ever justifiable to claim government benefits to which you are not entitled” — for those countries that did ask ethnicity, the total scores were, with the exception of france, pretty similar to the scores for just whites (presumably because, despite all the immigration to europe, it was mostly white europeans that were surveyed)…

nation – total score (whites only score)
france – 51.60% (41.10%)
finland – 55.90% (55.80%)
sweden – 61.60% (62.40%)
great britain – 63.60% (65.50%)
italy – 74.70% (74.70%)

…so i decided to use the total scores for each nation instead of just those for whites. keep this in mind. the scores are, at best, an approximation of how native europeans feel — at worst, they’re way off!

as in the previous post, i looked at four of the “justifiable” questions:

Please tell me for each of the following statements whether you think it can always be justified, never be justified, or something in between [on a scale from 1 to 10, never to always]:

- Claiming government benefits to which you are not entitled.
- Avoiding a fare on public transport.
- Cheating on taxes if you have a chance.
- Someone accepting a bribe in the course of their duties.

here are the results for each country of those who answered “Never justifiable” (click on charts for LARGER versions — you can compare these to the mexican and american scores here)…

- Claiming government benefits to which you are not entitled. – Never justifiable.

wvs - 2005 2006 - western europe - justifiable - government benefits

- Avoiding a fare on public transport. – Never justifiable.

wvs - 2005 2006 - western europe - justifiable - avoiding fare

- Cheating on taxes if you have a chance. – Never justfiable.

wvs - 2005 2006 - western europe - justifiable - cheating on taxes

- Someone accepting a bribe in the course of their duties. – Never justifiable.

wvs - 2005 2006 - western europe - justifiable - accepting a bribe

the netherlands ftw! but what’s with all the high scores from italy?! isn’t that interesting?! we all know that italy is pretty corrupt — maybe even they are just sick and tired of all the corruption? dunno.

all of these western european nations scored higher than mexico on the first two questions: claiming government benefits and avoiding a fare — although the swedes came pretty close to white mexicans when it came to avoiding a fare on public transport.

only italy and the netherlands scored higher than white americans wrt claiming government benefits — and germany, italy, and the netherlands scored higher than white americans on the avoiding a fare question. swedes scored lower than white americans.

except for the netherlands, italy, and spain, most of the europeans scored around the same as mexicans wrt cheating on taxes. go figure! they all scored lower than white americans.

and sweden, france, germany, great britain, and even finland scored very like mexicans when it came to accepting a bribe — quite a few of them think that sometimes it could be justified. and again, except for the italians and the dutch, everyone scored lower than white americans.

so, no — on the whole, scandinavians and germans don’t outscore white americans on these societal values questions. the dutch generally do, though — as do frequently the italians!
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what about southern italians versus mexicans? here are the results for some of the different regions of italy (i excluded those regions where the sample size was less than 50). i’ve color-coded the regions — north=blue, central=green, south=red:

- Claiming government benefits to which you are not entitled. – Never justifiable.

wvs - italy regions - justifiable - claiming government benefits

- Avoiding a fare on public transport. – Never justifiable.

wvs - italy regions - justifiable - avoiding fare

- Cheating on taxes if you have a chance. – Never justfiable.

wvs - italy regions - justifiable - cheating on taxes

- Someone accepting a bribe in the course of their duties. – Never justifiable.

wvs - italy regions - justifiable - accepting a bribe

all italians — including southern italians — score much, much higher than mexicans on the claiming government benefits question — like by thirty to forty percentage points. similar story for avoiding a public fare, although lazio and tuscany in central italy scored only ca. ten to fifteen points higher than (white) mexicans in this case.

more italians — including sicilians — agree with mexicans on the cheating on taxes question. this time, lazio, tuscany, and lombardy all scored very much the same as mexicans. and all italians say that they are not tolerant of bribe taking much more so than mexicans — especially southern italians (sicilians and puglians) — even though they don’t seem to be able to (heh) put their money where their mouths are.

the interesting divide in italy appears to be not so much a north-south divide as a central area vs. north/south. while venice and lombardy in the north did tend to score highest most of the time, it was the central regions of tuscany and lazio that tended to score lowest, not the southern regions.
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what would be interesting to know is how these various groups (italians, swedes, etc.) feel about these issue in the united states — iow, how would italian-americans respond? i’ll try to see if i can find out. stay tuned!
_____

previously: mexican societal values and more nepotism in southern than in northern italy… and democracy in italy

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from sam worby’s Law and Kinship in Thirteenth-Century England [pgs. 1-2 - link and emphases added by me]:

Charles Donahue Jr’s magisterial comparative study of marriage in England, France and Belgium has confirmed a remarkable pattern of family interaction for England. His thorough and statistical analysis of the surviving records of cases before the archbishop of York’s consistory court in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, and Ely consistory court between 1374 and 1381, incidentally seems to confirm that there was no clan or corporate kinship system operating in the areas covered, and, by inference, in England more widely (given the consistency of results between the two evidence sets). There was, he shows, even relatively low levels of parental involvement in marriage choice. Given the importance of marriage as a social institution and the potential consequences flowing from choice of partner — in property, alliance and social standing for example — it seems remarkable that an average of only 37 per cent of York cases showed evidence of parental involvement. While there was evidence for arranged marriages in the records of both courts, many couples appear to have acted independently. Whether this is qualified as ‘astonishingly’ or ‘unusually’ individualistic, the fact remains that many couples operated with relative freedom within the scope of the canon law marriage rules.

This individualistic pattern confirms a picture of family interaction for England found elsewhere, through evidence of marriage patterns, but also more broadly. From the Anglo-Norman nobility to later medieval peasants, the picture is of a limited family (although this book will not in fact focus on peasant kinship, but rather on kinship insofar as it was a general structure, transcending class and status). The extended kindred did not live together; the typical co-resident family appears to have been nuclear. There is evidence of kin interaction, particularly suggestive of closeness between siblings. There is a broad consensus about the narrowness of the operative kin group in England. It was rarely much larger than the immediate family, mostly the co-resident nuclear family, with some obligations and traceable contact extending out to cousins, and some closeness to siblings and occasionally to uncles and aunts. This pattern is unusual in comparison to other areas of Europe. It is suggestive to note that Franco-Belgian courts showed evidence for a higher level of family involvement in marriage arrangements. It is also striking to contrast the pattern of relatively informal clans able to act together in some European countries, such as Italy.

previously: english individualism and english individualism ii and invention of the modern world

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looks like it’s a northern italian name:

edit: oh yeah. rick’s father was from riva del garda in trentino. i shoulda checked wikipedia first. (~_^)

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remember how southern italians are more inbred than northern italians? and how the pisa scores are a lot lower in southern italy than in the north? and how there’s less “civic society” and more nepotism — even in academia — in southern italy than in northern italy? and how … well just how different northern and southern italy seem to be from one another in all sorts of ways?

well guess which presidenti di regione in italia earn the most money?

“Sicily and Sardinia Top Regional Pay Table”
27 gennaio 2012

“ROME – Sicily’s [SOUTH] regional chair Raffaele Lombardo says even mentioning ‘wage cages’ (regional wage differentials – Trans.) ‘disgusts’ him. A laudably consistent politician, Lombardo heads a region with almost the same number of residents as Veneto [NORTH], but with a 9.4% lower cost of living, trousering 43% more in pay and allowances than his Veneto colleague Luca Zaia. Lombardo banks €170,319 after tax as opposed to Zaia’s €118,703, according to the official figures posted on the conference of regional chairs’ website (www.parlamentiregionali.it). And this doesn’t even take into account the enormous difference in wealth of the two territories. According to the ISTAT statistics institute, Veneto’s GDP is 75% higher than Sicily’s.

The fact is that the only wage cages – the once-popular system of paying reduced wages in areas where the cost of living was lower – in existence in Italy are the ones that apply to politicians. They’re ‘reverse wage cages’, of course. Does it really make sense for a regional councillor in Molise [SOUTH], with a 32.8% lower cost of living, to rake in €10,125 every month when a colleague in Liguria [NORTH] gets €8,639? We will ignore the fact that Molise has a fifth of Liguria’s population and 37% less wealth per head.

“What is the point of a regional councillor in Emilia Romagna [NORTH] receiving half the net remuneration of a counterpart in Sardinia [SOUTH] (€5,666 in comparison with €11,417)? Or that the annual pay of the Calabrian [SOUTH] regional chair, even after a cut of €27,000, should be €43,000 higher than the remuneration of the Tuscan [NORTH] authority’s chair…?

“We should applaud the claim of Sardinia’s [SOUTH] regional chair Ugo Cappellacci that he waived ‘some time ago the chairman’s allowance and the official car to send out a personal signal at a difficult time for all’ yet it is impossible to forget that every resident in Sardinia has to fork out at least six times as much as a citizen in Lombardy [NORTH] or Emilia Romagna [NORTH] for the upkeep of the regional council. Simply by putting pay in the 20 regional parliaments on the same level, taxpayers could save the far from trivial sum of €606 million a year. It’s hard to see why the regional councils of Emilia Romagna [NORTH] and Lombardy [NORTH] get by nicely on about €8 per resident when the Sicilian [SOUTH] regional assembly needs almost €35 and Valle d’Aosta’s council a lavish €135….

“It still brings a wry smile to your lips to recall that many of Italy’s regional authority chairs are better – and in some cases considerably better – paid than the governors of US states.”

heh.

(note: comments do not require an email. northern and southern italy. and a bit in the middle. (~_^))

back in this post, i posted about how when asked in the 1999 world values survey, “To which of these geographical groups would you say you belong first of all?,” only 23.3% of italians responded italy. many more of them (53.4%) responded that they identified with their locality first and the country second.

unfortunately, they changed the wording of the world values survey questions regarding this topic in subsequent waves. in 2005 they simply asked do you strongly agree/agree or strongly disagree/disagree with the following statement: “I see myself as citizen of the [country] nation.” in 2005, 48.2% of italians said they strongly agreed with that statement. in addition, 35.6% said they strongly agreed with “I see myself as a member of my local community.”

it’s hard to compare the two data sets (1999 and 2005) ’cause of the wording change, but it could look like italians are starting to feel more italian. the age data from 1999 kinda looked like it might indicate that — certainly people over 50 were more inclined to identify first with their locality and secondly with the nation. it was hard to tell with younger people, though.

now an italian research group, censis, has published their social outlook survey report for 2011. amongst their findings:

“In its latest outlook on society, Censis found that 46% of citizens identified themselves as ‘Italians’, while 31.3% were more locally orientated, 15.4% considered themselves ‘citizens of the world’ or as ‘Europeans’ and 7.3% felt allegiance only to themselves.”

no idea if these responses represent “strongly agree” answers, or even what the specific questions were, but this seems to be in the ballpark of the 2005 world values survey responses — a little under half of italians identify with being italian. that’s … pretty good!

by way of comparison, when americans were asked “I see myself as citizen of the [country] nation” for the world values survey in 2006, 61.2% of respondents said that they strongly agreed with that statement.

oh … 57.3% of italians also said, in this censis survey, that they are willing to make more sacrifices for italy considering the bad economic times. but only if the sh*t really hits the fan.

previously: on feeling local

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in the article about italy that i quoted in one of yesterday’s posts, the author said:

“When you ask citizens of, for example, Pisa how they identify themselves, they are likely to answer first as Pisans, then as Tuscans, and only after as Italians or Europeans.”

from the world values survey, 1999 — in response to the question: To which of these geographical groups would you say you belong first of all? And the next? And which do you belong to least of all? (click on images for LARGER view):

more than half (53.4%) of italians said they identified most (first) with their local community compared to 38.4% of greeks and 31.9% of americans. only 23.3% of italians identified first with the nation, whereas 35.3% of greeks and 34.9% of americans did. i’m surprised that so many greeks identified first with their nation, but then they are less inbred than italians. why so few americans should identify first with their country, i don’t know. many recent immigrants? too outbred? a combination of both? dunno.

a full 19.5% of americans said they identified first with “The World.” somehow i don’t think that those sentiments are generally reciprocated. maybe from some northern europeans? dunno — will have to check that out.

1999 starts to be a bit old for sentiment data; unfortunately, this (exact) question was not asked on the most recent world values survey (2005), and the respondents from 1999 are practically a whole generation ago now (how time flies!).

here’s the same data from 1999 for each of the three countries by age of respondent. first, greece:

then, italy:

finally, the u.s.:

older greeks (over 50) identified more strongly with their locality than younger greeks, and there was a general downward trend from the eldest to youngest greeks. there’s a u-shaped pattern amongst the italians: like the greeks, italians over 50 were most likely to identify with their locality, but unlike the greeks they were waaay more likely to do so. the subsequent italian generations, like the greeks, were less likely to identify first with their locality, although they did so more than the greeks. but there was an upswing in local identity amongst italians aged 15-29. americans showed an inverse u-shaped pattern in local identity, with 30- and 40-somethings most likely to identify locally than other americans. altogether, americans were much less likely to identify first locally.

again, older greeks had the strongest national sentiments compared to younger greeks, and there was a downward trend over the generations. on the whole, greeks were much more likely to identify first as greeks than italians as italians. and their nationalistic sentiments were pretty comparable to those of americans — a surprise to me! italian feelings of being italian first have increased over the generations, but only slightly, and their percentages are quite a bit below those of greece and the u.s. like the greeks, older americans were more likely to feel american first, and there’s been a downward trend.

younger people (ages 15-29) in both greece and the u.s. were more likely to identify first as citizens of the world — something like 19% in greece and 25% in the u.s. younger italians, too, felt more like global citizens than their elders, but only at a rate of about 10%. in all three cases, as the feelings of being global citizens increased, the feeling of being connected to a locality or nation decreased — or vice versa.

(note: comments do not require an email. 1999!)

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